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About Me
- Larky Park
- Colorful, textural clothing & accessories made from vintage, salvaged and modern materials. Wholesale Retail Online Ordering
26 comments:
Is that the underground train that goes from England to France? I heard it's pretty fast.
LMAO.
I've come across quite a number of transgendered people in my travels on Second Life.
They are interesting, indeed.
Ok, time to stop reading Freud with your morning coffee...
Here's what I think...sexual desire has more purpose than procreation. As I get older and farther from the dogma of the church I grew up in, I believe more and more that believe are born gay or straight, gendered or transgendered. In fact, one could argue that transgenderism/homosexuality is nature's way of effecting population control because creation of children is not necessarily a byproduct of persons exhibiting this behavior. Whether there are spiritual consequences depends largely what the god you believe in actually thinks of such things (which we can only speculate based on references by dead guys who never met God). I know Dan will disagree with me, but I have a difficult time believing that God would damn people to a life away from him because of the way he created them.
Socially, I think we are in the adolescent stage of society's gradual acceptance of people's sexual differences. People are more careful and more mature about dealing with these things in a social setting, but loud disagreements and social rebellion still exist out there. I actually hope we see a day when people are judged by the strength of their character and not based on some subjective moral agenda.
adam...
amen. halle-f#%$*ing-llujah
l.
"I know Dan will disagree with me, but I have a difficult time believing that God would damn people to a life away from him because of the way he created them. "
actaully i think dan might agree with you on that point, i seem to recall a previous conversation where we discussed revalatory damnation. Dan pipe up! what gives. :)
l.
Haha, I think he's actually doing home visits right now, but I'm sure he'll get around to disagreeing with you as soon as he gets the chance.
LMAO!
Dan, where are you?!
I have a meeting to run off to. So unfair.
I'll be back!
Jesse
The Freaking Pope??? LMAO!!!!
OK I'm here! Sorry I had some drug tests to do ( I can't type and hold cups of pee at the same time).
I'm not entirely surprised at how Adam would expect me to view this subject but, as I am such an enigma, I will once again shatter the publics expectations of me :)
i would agree with you Adam that, at the very least, homosexual orientation is something people are born with (or perhaps it would be better to say "can" be born with). The transgender issue is a little newer and it is difficult to say with any certainty one way or the other, but I certainly accept it as a possibility. I would also say that there are social and psychological factors that can contribute to this as well. But the true question is, why does it matter either way?
From a pro-GLBT point of view, whether you are born this way or whether it is a result of your life circumstances, it is your choice how to live your life. I think the big push to say that it is genetic is actually more harmful than good for these individuals. In a sense, to make the argument "I can't help it, this is how I was made," implies that what your are doing is problematic. It is a denial of accountability. It would seem to me that it would be more advantageous to take the position "Maybe it is social/pyschological, maybe all sexuality is. So what? Maybe I can choose to be different. I'm not going to and I don't have to. i have the right to live how I want."
Looking now at the orthodox Christian perspective I also see the who nature v. nurture thing as moot. So what if homosexuality is genetic? That does not mean that it cannot still be a sin. It certainly changes the way we look at it, but it does not validate it. Alcoholism has been linked to genetic factors as has cancer. When man fell it was not simply his desires that were corrupted, the entire Universe was. But if God can allow his people to cross a sea on dry land or raise the dead, couldn't he also overcome our corrupted genetic code?
Finally, I will never say that God damns anyone. I believe that God is perfectly compassionate and that he is perfectly just, both of which I am not. it is not my place to judge others or to presume what God's judgments would be. In regards to homosexuality, many people say they (for the sake of arguments I will define "they" as gay Christians) are damned because they willingly defy God and are unrepentant. If this were the case then we all are damned. How often do we make a conscious choice to do something we shouldn't rather than something we should? How often do we feel the Spirit tugging us towards the right choice only to shrug it off and follow our own arrogance. And who is truly repentant? If we ever were, then why do we sin again and again? Who truly understands the depth of their own sin? Who know how many sins they have committed that they went their whole life not even realizing it was a sin?
I certainly hope that God has more grace than these people think, or else I might as well give up now.
Just so you are sure, Dan, My comment was tongue-in-cheek. I just forgot to put in a smiley face to let you know. I know you don't want to damn people to hell...unless they deserve it of course.
The way I see it, I could give a rat's donkey whether a person is a homosexual/transgender or whatever. It's really none of my business. If they feel no guilt and are at peace with themselves, is that a bad thing? I've long stopped worrying about other people's salvation. There's nothing I can do about it. Frankly, I am not convinced that salvation is there for them at the end anyway.
Regardless, Jesus simply lived love. He cared about people and their happiness on earth as well as their salvation. That's our example of how to deal with people whose behaviors and lifestyles do not comport with the way we choose to live. I choose to simply look to make people happy, make their lives easier, maybe make them laugh. That's what gives me peace and makes me happy. If there is salvation at the end, great. If not, then I'll have been happy making others happy. As I have said before, life is the pursuit of happiness and the avoidance of pain, pure and simple.
i agree that people are born gay/transgender/hetersexual whatever just as we are all born whatever we are. but just because i'm born with alcoholic tendencies in my family and therefore genetic code doesn't mean i have to choose to drink; just because someone is born hornier than a bull doesn't mean they have to choose to live a life of promiscuity. so the "i was born with it and can't help it" argument doesn't fly with me...maybe you were born with it but you CAN help what you do with it. my favorite uncle in the universe is gay and a spirit filled Bible-believing Christian and has chosen celibacy. his strength (not in spite of his struggle but because of it) inspires me every moment i'm in his presence.
just a question: is bethany STARVED for adult conversation in the midst of mommy world?! these have been some racey blog posts lately missey... :)
No, it's my random mind-ravings that I have never given voice to. I've always been this spastic.
By the way Jen, sorry for not calling. I'm coming back down on the last weekend if May...
The thing with being transgender, according to my understanding, is that they believe they were born the wrong sex and have stated feeling this way since their earliest memories. Anybody catch Barbara Walters & 20/20 a couple of weeks ago when she did the whole hour on this phenomenon? She interviewed children whose parents swear that at the age of 2 and 3 that even though they (the children) were born male, they have always identified themselves as female. Can a child at such an age actually choose this? Can a child at such a young age even understand the complexities of all of this? This is what got me thinking & re-working my theology and understanding of being made in the image & likeness of God.
This issue is totally different than being gay/lesbian/bi. These are people who feel their genitalia is a birth defect and whose identity goes beyond their sexuality. I'm wrestling with how this all works in light of my understanding of Christ & the gospel.
transgender would also include those "without" physical gender markings at birth. Most tiems the family "decides" and has the doctors do a surgical procedure to make them a gender.
what the hell do you do with that. then if they somehow pick the wrong gender and that person gravitates toward the other side they are living in sin? Sorry don't buy it.
This is a sticky issue simply becasue there is nothing inth ebible that even "skirts" the issue.
l.
In cases where an individual is born with the genitalia of both genders, in most cases the individual is a male (as can be determined by their chromosomes) and for some reason is under developed. We technically are all girls for the beginning of our lives but become one or the other when the proper hormones are introduced. Some individuals require hormonal supplements later in life (i.e. puberty) in order to develop properly. This still leaves a lot of questions as to gender identity and sexual orientation which is why i think there can be no blanket response in this issue. The causes for gender issues for this are so varied that we really need to take these issues on a case by case basis. Of course even if every single transgender individual had the exact same cause behind their conflict, I think that we need to deal with the issue on an individual basis simply because it is the Christian thing to do. When we loose the individual in this matter it is easy for us to lump them all together and just write them off as freaks and forget that they are people who are suffering and need our support.
"I've always been this spastic."
Y'know, Beth, as your godfather, I always worried that something might happen to your folks and I would have to make good on my promise to raise you in their belief system. I was not, and am not, qualified or inclined to do so. I was eighteen, I loved my sister and I was honored to be considered for the role. And I never in my life thought it would end up being more than an honor.
Yet, the more I get to know you, the more it seems like I might have actually raised you in some parallel universe and you are the christian version in this universe. How's THAT for spastic?
rick
you rock. nough said.
l.
Levi,
Thanks, I think.
I can never tell if " 'nough said" means I should just clam up.
It has in the past, from time to time, and good advice that was.
Dan wrote:
Finally, I will never say that God damns anyone. I believe that God is perfectly compassionate and that he is perfectly just, both of which I am not. it is not my place to judge others or to presume what God's judgments would be. In regards to homosexuality, many people say they (for the sake of arguments I will define "they" as gay Christians) are damned because they willingly defy God and are unrepentant. If this were the case then we all are damned.
---
Dan I agree with you on this. God can forgive the murderer, the drunk, the adulterer, the selfish, the slanderer, the greedy, and the homosexual. His grace is there for us all.
At the same time, we don't stop saying that murder is sin, substance abuse is sin, adultery is sin, greed is sin, and homosexuality is, in fact, sin. The agenda that many in the homosexual community have is an effort to call homosexuality "equal" to heterosexuality and "not a sin".
Otherwise, discipling gay Christians would HAVE TO INCLUDE TEACHING ON REPENTANCE and the idea that we strive everyday to be closer to God and to repent from sin. Repentance from homosexuality has to be included in that, doesn't it?
And that's the rub. The only way for homosexual Christians to be truly accepted, and true disciples in the church, is for us to ignore the Bible itself.
I know that that church is beginning to make strides to reach out to the gay community, but I believe some denominations (the old mainline protestant ones) have really gone too far. The ordination of practicing homosexuals is already happening, and is becoming more widely accepted.
im just gonna leave that one alone.
l.
Scottie,
I am in no way denying that homosexuality is a sin or that we should stop saying it is. I was more speaking to the fact that we cannot and should not say that an individual is damned for being a homosexual anymore than we can say any individual is damned for a sin that they are unrepentant for (which I think would cover us all).
I think you make a good point when you say,
"discipling gay Christians would HAVE TO INCLUDE TEACHING ON REPENTANCE and the idea that we strive everyday to be closer to God and to repent from sin."
The problem with how many the church deal with homosexuality is that it resorts to a more punitive focus (which we mostly abandoned when discussing other sins). Our focus should be on bringing these individuals closer to God.
you said, "but I believe some denominations (the old mainline protestant ones) have really gone too far. The ordination of practicing homosexuals is already happening, and is becoming more widely accepted."
Eh, I think you might be over estimating how big of an issue this is. There have only been two denominations (the Episcopal and the Methodists which make up less than .01% of Christianity) to my knowledge that have actually ordained practicing homosexuals and in both cases created serious instability within the denominations. Some diocese in the Episcopal/Anglican church actually defected to the Catholic church over the issue. The small number of denominations that have considered ordaining homosexuals or teaching that homosexuality isn't a sin have watched these events unfold and have become pretty hesitant to fall into the same problems. The majority of even the old mainline protestant churches still view homosexuality as a sin and i don't forsee that changing anytime soon.
I can't not post on this subject, but I don't really have the three days it would take to address everything I've read here. I appreciate the fact that it has been remarked upon that homosexuality and transgenderism are separate issues.
I can spot a transgender person on the streets here maybe a couple of times a month. One guy-to-girl person is trans-ing at the checkout at my local Safeway. The nametag reads "Erica." Only the nametag tipped me off. Seems like a really nice person and grateful that I responded to him/her as such. Discreetly, I noticed that there were some boobs trying to grow. I felt a protective compassion for this person and was thankful for the degree of difficulty I am currently experiencing with the decisions in my own life. My trials seem smaller.
I have worked in theater for about 25 years now, and it's not news that that medium of expression calls to the gay community. As I have known this community for a measurable amount of time, I have come to the conclusion that they are no different than people of any other community, other than the aspect of their sexual orientation. Like my hetero acquaintances, some I would like to just smack, and others I would take a bullet for.
I'm flattened by the idea that they are wrong because of how their love for another human manifests itself.
I obviously don't hold every tract of the bible in the same regard as the majority here. But, as has been pointed out by countless others, one must be careful as to what one chooses to subscribe to from that book. Too bad it's not an all-or-nothing publication. It is interpreted by bajillions of people on a daily basis and not all seem to agree on the interpretation.
I love my friends hetero, homo, even some of the psychos. Please handle them with the same respect you would give a family member with a difference in how they live.
Pardon me if I'm today's buttinski.
Uncle Rick -
Is it ok if I call you uncle w/o any previous relation??
Anywhoo, thanks for your insight. Your tenderness & compassion make a profound argument.
Peace out ~ teresa (FYI, I'm one of the spaz-es that got the Fuson's to move to GB)
the bottom line is Jesus treated people with compassion. all people. it wasn't conditional, and that's where the church has historically screwed up! "God will love you if you (fill in the blank)." this line of thinking has completely negated just how big the Cross and the works of the Holy Spirit really are. let's be cool to everyone the way He was and "Let those without sin cast the first stone"
Guess I'm officially an old fart when it feels ok for any and all to call me "Uncle." Believe me, I've been called worse. Many times. Occasionally with great vigor.
Actually, tms, thanks. Now I'm feeling flattered.
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